Curse

Ken Dei · Mar 27, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I invoke the:

"Signet of MASSIVE Disapproval"
"Signet of The Masses"

The people have spoken! We want Alliance Battles as they are!

I don't need to reitterate why we want it that way, it's all been said. The Elitists can bite us, or just go back and hide in your R6 cookie-cutter builds.

A.Net, listen to your players, we are speaking to you with vibrant fervor, do not change Alliance Battles, you got it right the first time.

~Schodai, kosh-ko dae!
~Rise, that victory may be ours!
A Luxon Battlecry

Studio Ghibli · Mar 27, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

:sighs:

But what I've been told though, once Factions goes live, Alliance battles will have teams composed of.. well.. your Alliance.

In other words, it's a glorfied GvG.

Which means, unless you've got hardcore players, you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed.

Which means I won't be doing Alliance battles that much.

I love the randomness of the Alliance battles. It's such an exciting novelty. It's a shame it's going to be replaced, though.

Please keep it the way it is right now, Anet. ;(

LaserLight · Mar 28, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quite simply, if 12-man battles turn into purely Alliance battles, then the vast majority of people will stop playing them. As it stands, what percentage of players can actually, regularly, and succesfully compete in Hero's Ascent? It can't be more than five percent, if that. And less than one percent can be successful in GvG.

The current 12v12 format is a format that anyone can be successful in. You don't have to aspire to Idiot Savants in order to enjoy a 12v12 match, or even to be a highly successful 12v12 player. Little ol' me, who has a great head for tactics and combat but also has too much of a life and not nearly enough masochistic tendencies to bother with HA at all or GvG very much, can go in and turn the tides of battle. Even PvE players can come in, enjoy a good beatfest, and Further The Cause. Even the roleplayers can get into 12-man matches - nothing like army battles to get the storytelling juices going.

Turn it into three squads of four guys apiece from a single Guild/Alliance, with no random selection of squads, and Anet will destroy what is possibly the best PvP format they've devised in the history of this game. Combine that with the all-but-officially-confirmed fact that only u63r l33t Alliances can gain control of towns, and the elite missions contained therein, and I will have to seriously reconsider buying any new campaigns beyond Factions.

Because if Anet can find it in itself to screw up such a beautiful game type, I do not want to know what else they could bring themselves to destroy.

Studio Ghibli · Mar 28, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Quite simply, if 12-man battles turn into purely Alliance battles, then the vast majority of people will stop playing them. As it stands, what percentage of players can actually, regularly, and succesfully compete in Hero's Ascent? It can't be more than five percent, if that. And less than one percent can be successful in GvG.

The current 12v12 format is a format that anyone can be successful in. You don't have to aspire to Idiot Savants in order to enjoy a 12v12 match, or even to be a highly successful 12v12 player. Little ol' me, who has a great head for tactics and combat but also has too much of a life and not nearly enough masochistic tendencies to bother with HA at all or GvG very much, can go in and turn the tides of battle. Even PvE players can come in, enjoy a good beatfest, and Further The Cause. Even the roleplayers can get into 12-man matches - nothing like army battles to get the storytelling juices going.

Turn it into three squads of four guys apiece from a single Guild/Alliance, with no random selection of squads, and Anet will destroy what is possibly the best PvP format they've devised in the history of this game. Combine that with the all-but-officially-confirmed fact that only u63r l33t Alliances can gain control of towns, and the elite missions contained therein, and I will have to seriously reconsider buying any new campaigns beyond Factions.

Because if Anet can find it in itself to screw up such a beautiful game type, I do not want to know what else they could bring themselves to destroy.

You, sir, have summed up everything I've been struggling to say in a handful of posts.

The Primeval King · Mar 28, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I think that these Alliance Battles are fine.. but I think it would be really neat if there was just a humongous district where 250 people could be in it at the same time, all fighting each other (but it would be set up like 50 people on 1 team, 50 on another, etc). Now THAT would be a little hectic ; )

Merry Madrigal · Mar 28, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You can play that now. It's called DAOC lol.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 28, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

The random creation of the 12 player must stay, or else many players will be deprived the chance to have fun.

Linkusmax · Mar 28, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Alliances may have up to 1000 players, Alliance battles have no real effect on your alliance.

The game randomly puts teams of 4 from YOUR alliance together.

If you are part of a large alliance you can still easily get into a group and its hard to enforce a "Zomg Rank 6 only" rule.

I think I like Cunning will prefer it the way A.Net has it planned.

Notice that they are Alliance Battles, but in the FAQ Kurzicks and Luxons are distinctly refeered to as Factions, this reinforces the claims of what Alliance Battles are intended to be.

twicky_kid · Mar 28, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

For anyone that is afraid this will turn into HA you should read the rest of this post. ALLIANCES DO NOT HAVE RANK. The rank system is what destroyed HA for most people and the devs understand they made a bad choice implementing.

12vs12 is nothing more than a grind fest for pve players to keep the towns. Since that town will affect merchants and such it will have a more imposing impact than the favor system. If you want to do elite missions in pve you will have to do some pvp to gain control of the town.

You don't have to have an Alliance to be able to get into the 12v12 maps. You just need yourself or a team of 4. You can still be matched randomly or do an alliance. That does not stop you from playing in any way if you want to go random.

Mysterial · Mar 28, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

For anyone that is afraid this will turn into HA you should read the rest of this post. ALLIANCES DO NOT HAVE RANK. The rank system is what destroyed HA for most people and the devs understand they made a bad choice implementing.

Do you really think people won't use it anyway? It'll just be grind in HA to get the rank you have to have to get a team in Alliance battles.

Quote:

You don't have to have an Alliance to be able to get into the 12v12 maps. You just need yourself or a team of 4. You can still be matched randomly or do an alliance. That does not stop you from playing in any way if you want to go random.

It absolutely stops you from playing random (well, unless you like losing every game). It's like taking a PUG in TA; you might as well not even bother.

twicky_kid · Mar 28, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

It absolutely stops you from playing random (well, unless you like losing every game). It's like taking a PUG in TA; you might as well not even bother.

I've had teams from RA go 25+ wins straight after we get to TA. Random doesn't mean you will lose.

iladin · Mar 28, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

You would turn a fair battle, quick to organize, that you can still play with friends, you can get into the map in under a minute. into a game that forces you to do HA until you have enough of a rank to wait in a group for an hour as it organizes only to have it killed by a top rank guild in the first five minutes?

I hope the people who enjoy HA stay in HA because those are the people who ruin pvp.

Lady Lorwinia · Mar 28, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

I think they should do a random 12vs12 for the people who can't get into a group.

And a Heroes ascent version of 12vs12.

Let there be order!

LaserLight · Mar 28, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

I've had teams from RA go 25+ wins straight after we get to TA. Random doesn't mean you will lose.

No, it just means you've got a one-in-a-hundred chance of going anywhere.

Do you honestly think that, just because there isn't an account-specific reward for 12-man fighting, it will stay nice and fun and cool for anyone but people who spend thirty-four hours a day grinding faction? Uh-uh honey, no. Controlling an entire city and gaining EXCLUSIVE GODDAMNED ACCESS to the top PvE content in the game is a thousand times the reward a fancy flashy animal emote is.

Implement the ability to guarantee all twelve members of your team and I can guarantee you, it won't just be r6+ games, it'll be r12+ games or quite possibly even more insane. Or more likely, elite players will simply never play without a full twelve-man group so as to maximize their earnings.

And do tell me what randomly-grouped team that has never communicated with each other before and is reliant on Team channel and common sense (which is in rare enough supply) to coordinate their actions can stand up to twelve of Guild Wars' best players with a dedicated Ventrillo server, hundreds of hours of experience playing with just this people and just this build and has refined the chaos of 12v12 battle into just another type of farming.

You can take a random PuG into Hero's Ascent too. Tell me how far you get with one the next time you deign to try. Which will likely be never, because unranked pukes like me are so obviously not worth the breath in our bodies, much less a chance to see if I can, indeed, get anywhere in such an environment, eh?

Put some thought into what ye speak of, Twicky. 12-man battles will be the most influental, hotly-contested battles in all of Guild Wars, hands down, because they directly affect both standard PvE and top-level farming. Allow the elitist ultra-rich to band together without fail and that bare handful of oligarchs will continue to dominate everything Guild Wars, crushing down the casual, common, or new players in order to maximize their personal earnings, throwing honor, sportsmanship, and regard for one's fellow players straight out the same window it's been flying out of for the last year.

I. Will. Not. Stand. For. It!! The 12-man arena is our place, the one and only PvP refuge of the Average Man that means anything. And don't tell me Random Arenas - those get old after an hour of dealing with them. If that long. You people already have Hero's Ascent, both Underworlds, and Guild vs. Guild. Let us have our one retreat! Why must you steal this away from us too? Is this game not championed as the casual gamer's best friend? For a game which targets casual gamers as much as possible, we sure can't do that bloody much! And now we get a bone thrown our way, and the dominant elitist class wants to take away even that!

Well, I say nay! PvE is the domain of the casual players and those without the means and connections to play competitively, and I say any PvP that directly influences it should be as well! No way in HELL do I want the Guild Wars equivalents of the Rockefellers deciding what I can or can't do and where I can or can't go!

I say it's time for the elitists to be dependant on us for a change! For so long, over ninety-five percent of the Guild Wars player base has been getting the shaft every time they log on and play. No more! This time, I'll Red Engine Go-ing fight it! And judging by the overwhelming support for the current system in this thread, I won't be alone!

So give it up now. Go back to Hero's Ascent, your Underworlds, and training for the free trip to exotic locations and large cash prize that GvG elites can gain. Be content with your organized, structured, restricted, stale, utterly corrupt play there. Because if you people end up screwing up the 12-man fight for the other ninety-five percent of Guild Wars, I'll type my fingers down to bleeding stumps raising as much hell over it as I possibly can!

Ristaron · Mar 28, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

I really didn't bother to read the last 4 pages (and I seriously doubt that with that much reading, other people will have). But because everyone's opinion is valued to me (most of the time) I shall state my opinion in case this is the same for others.

12 vs 12 is a great idea... in theory. It works very well in reality, with two problems:
1) The lag. Twenty-four people on a huge map will lag. I was fortunate enough to be on my good computer this weekend, so I didn't get very much of it... but that computer has 1 gig of RAM and a processor that would put ANet to shame. Twelve vs. Twelve makes it paramount for you to have a good computer.
2) The lack of organization. However you look at it, there are going to be problems in the organization unless you make it teams of 12. The current one of teams of 4 is, in my opinion, the best. It allows for small teams inside the larger one to act like shock troops if need me. That's what my guild did during the preview. We got on TS and went around capturing as many points as we could.
Looking at teams of 6: Two teams of organized parties. Can you see the bickering that would go on between two head-strong wannabe Napoleans? Or even an organized guild and a n00b PUG. The party stands a far better chance of splitting down the middle, and then some from one side going with the more organized group. You'd have a larger good party and a smaller bad party.
Looking at teams of 12: GvG + 4 players per team. Top guilds would gain way too much [faction] faction, and increase their standing to a level far beyond any less-active or smaller guild.
And the rumour is that if you have enough standing, you can purchase areas for your guild. Can you see player-based factions controlling huge parts of the map? (My source for that rumour is my guild, someone heard it somewhere.)

My opinion on alliance battles: good as they are.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Mar 28, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

LaserLight pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

I'll say it again:
ANET, please don't take away the new found joy for the casual Guild Wars players.
Please.

Thank you.

twicky_kid · Mar 28, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Laser you might want to know who you speak to before you run your mouth. I've played since beta of c1 and am currently RANKLESS and always will be. RANK means nothing and GOOD players know that. GvG is my format.

Casual players are in no way locked out of 12vs12 matches because of alliances you only need a team of 4 to take control of alters and maintain that control which is what the battle is all about. Farmers farm not play pvp so that idea is out. This town taking is a way to limit farming and keep everyting square for the AVERAGE player in pve.

If it takes you hours to find a 4 man team then you haven't met enough friends and I can see why. Even if people request rank in 12vs12 matches it only takes 4 people and then go. Its just like making a TA pug which takes no time at all.

Everyone is so worried about the top tier guilds it is laughable. How many top tier guilds are there? Now how many instances of 12vs12 are going to be battling at one time? I'll bet there are more instances than top guilds. there will be top tier guilds but there will also be more middle class players and even more complete nubbies.

Casual players are not being left behind in any way by alliances. If you feel that you are being "left behind" then don't buy it. Wait for c3 in 6 months.

Linkusmax · Mar 28, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Laserlight get off your damn soapbox man.

You act so bloody righteous but ignore some simple facts.

It will still be 3 teams of 4 randomly put together from WITHIN your alliance.

Top Tier guilds will be unlikely to be playing alot of it because they are much more concerned with GvG. Domination of the Faction standings will most likely be held by large active alliances.

Aside from that your making a huge assumption saying that it will need rank to get in groups. On what grounds are you basing this? Even if by some off chance they start too I still get into rank 6 groups merely by messaging the advertiser and explaining things to them.

If you are in an active Guild you shouldn't have any troubles with HA either. The game is called GUILD wars after all.

allience · Mar 28, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

i've played the 12 vs 12 only 3 times. i did not like it because it's like a huge random arena. ppl were just randomly pinging the compass, running off like idiots everywere. even with 4 ppl from your own party, it's still a mess.

as a pvp player, i couldn't care less about pve town control. if this will remain random, i won't be playing it and i'm sure most of the pvp only players will feel the same.

i see a solution to this though. they should make 2 types of 12 man arenas.

1. should be this same 12 man random arena that controls the pve towns. this way pve players can have their grind fest without complaining about rank.

2. should be a new 12 man ORGANISED arena, just like our current heros ascent but that would have no impact on pve towns.

i think this would solve all problems. people say factions if pvp based but i disagree. i feel left out as a pvp'er because all this town control thing. why should they ruin our fun be placing us in random teams for the SOLE benefit of pve'ers. this randomness is very frustrating, it needs a change!

i was looking forward to factions being able to organise a 12 man party. i got very disappointed so far.

TheYellowKid · Mar 28, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

if the only way to solve this is to have 2 versions then so be it but i dont want to lose what we had in the beta..

also if u only get placed with people in your alliance that obviously means that if they're not on u cant play?

Ristaron: there was no lag for me, actually like once or 2wice but i think that was more to do with their servers and it being the preview weekend then anything

allience: by the end of the weekend i didnt see any of that, i encountered less leavers was fortunate not to come across any suicide bombers, and in general everyone knew what they were doin, but i agree with your solution hopefully its something a.net have considered